There was a discussion that came up when I used to play VS, about balancing card drawbacks. I used to design custom cards for the game, and my favourite ones to make were the ones with massive power, accompanied by an even bigger downside. Nearly impossible to get to work, but HOT DAMN do they kick ass if you can get it to go. One of the game's designers chimed in at one point when we were discussing cards like that, and he pointed out that the main problem with doing cards like that is that there are always ways to get around the liabilities. If a card had a huge cost, the game had mechanics for paying it. If a card had a tight restriction, there were ways to cheat it. Cards with 200% power, but 200% cost, are the most fun to play, but they're inherently very hard to balance, as smart players simply learn to work around the costs; eventually, it's simply 200% power for 120% cost, and at that point you have a broken card. This is why most cards in any card game (or models in a minis game, or class in an RPG, etc etc etc) give 95-105% power, for 95-105% cost. They're not exciting, but they need to comprise most of the landscape for the game to be balanced.

Legion are an entire army of models that range from 150 to 200% power/cost. They have a consistent drawback in their low armor, but in practice that drawback is fairly negligible. The Angelius has low armor for a heavy, sure... but that's only when you imagine it taking "anti-tank" weapons to the face. In reality, most anti-tank weapons are designed to hit DEF10, not DEF14. The weapons that really threaten an Angel will never actually hit it.

In practice, the Flying Circus legion build is unrestrained power with no drawback. Wings let the Angels hide inside forests or behind heavy cover or meat walls, without restricting their ability to spring forward and attack. Defensive lines are meaningless against them, as they simply fly over. Most models that hit as hard as an Angel are balanced by their slow movement-- but an Angel charges 10", with reach, and makes a POW16 AP attack, ignoring every model and piece of terrain in the way. Even once they arrive, their "glass cannon" status isn't much of a liability-- the heavy jacks and beasts are usually on the front lines, a foot or more away, facing the wrong direction, with a ton of models in the way. The ranged models can't hurt the Angel because it's engaged, and the melee ones can't reach it.

Angels are the worst offenders here, but all of Legion works the same way to differing degrees. Legion is universally high-power models with the drawback of low armor.... but they get another counter-balance in high defense. They aren't ACTUALLY glass cannons at all, as their low ARM is already countered by high DEF. The high offensive punch and mobility aren't part of that equation at all, they're simply free gifts with no downside.

Legion were an interesting idea, but the idea was executed poorly. To actually be glass cannons, they need to be low ARM, without a compensatory increase in DEF. Legion are a poorly-designed mistake, and I look forward to seeing them nerfed into the ground next January. The ensuing eruption of whining from the Legion boards will be sweet music to my ears as all the munchkins lose their easy buttons and have to learn to play with actual strategy like the rest of us.

On that day, I shall bring cake for all to share in the celebration.

And party hats.

---

"How did you know you weren't really going crazy?"
"The voices in my head kept calling me Bruce."
"Yeah, and?"
"In my head, that's not what I call myself."

Wow I have an uphill battle to fight here...lets try it anyway! :)

@gday

Yea lessers are too cheap. Mostly the shredder since its only 23 points for 14 hit boxes and two double boosted P+S 10 hits, harrier aint bad. But when you say having all beasts with shepherds and forsaken to take care of fury, thats a lot of point sink into 3-4 beasts that can have enemy fire concentrated onto them, with infantry swarm the way it is, those beasts are going down. And those shepherds and forsaken are relatively fragile models that can easily be taken out with low-moderate effort, its all about threat assessment here.

Yeah every faction has broken stuff, thats why I love this game! :)

@killraven

Lowest armour and less hit boxes mean nothing? I think they are very important considering Khador, easily regarded the most powerful faction, has the highest armour and the most hit boxes, and they continually place in the top in most national tournaments etc etc. And with regards to the Carni VS Titan Gladiator just add paingiver and your hitting just as hard or harder, charging for free and charging farther as well, add animus and your set. :)

I agree that Legion, with the full addition of evolution and half of Meta out so far, are a head above the other hordes factions, but warmachine still has a stronger and deeper selection of models just by number of books and they don't have the requirements of having to take beasts.

@Chroma

Furying is not as bad as it should be, that is true, but it definitely still has its drawbacks. A frenzying beast definitely has more potential power than regular forcing, but you can't focus that power where you want it and most importantly, you can't transfer to that beast for a round. Warlock armour is generally 1-2 points lower than warcaster armour, with no overboosting allowed, this makes the warlocks absolutely dependent on transfers and with one less option to transfer to, take out the primary transfers and go for the assassinate.

Once again I also still maintain frenzying should be worse like going straight for the warlock. :)

@Spud

Once again, if EVERY SINGLE model in legion is so point efficient, why no wins let alone top 4 finishes in any national events? High armour and more hit boxes WITH high offensive potential (Khador) has always been the most effective way to win games, prioritize which of your models can take a hit and then hit back harder...Legion can't take a hit...at all.

Wings I have to admit are too powerful. It is essentially pathfinder/all terrain and half of acrobatics combined. The new ability of flight in MKII is more balanced...no ignoring free strikes :).

Defense doesn't completely balance low armour. There are many more defense debuffing abilities out there as opposed to armour debuffs. Just in general, slamming, throwing and collateral damage all override defense...spells have can have an equal effect on both. Take this example.... wats harder to kill? Something DEF 15 ARM 25 or DEF 25 ARM 15? No matter how hard you try, ARM 25 is hard to crack PERIOD. A+H + high pow/weapon master is all I can think of that is readily accessible. DEF 25? Slams and throws are readily available, just toss someone with low defense in front and give it a go.

And I'm done...for now...

---

Cryx 496 points
Cygnar 1170 points
Protectorate 2750 points
Mercenary 903 points

Legion 2065 points
Minion 411 points

7395 points!

Caster Kill is always a victory condition :P Regardless of which event it is. Granted they might loose to primary before that happens, just wanted to point that out.

---

The key is to commit crimes so confusing that police feel too stupid to even write a crime report about them.
Randy K. Milholland, Something Positive Comic, 10-30-03

Desperate is not a sexual preference.
Randy K. Milholland, Something Postive, 01-08-09

Yes, all warcasters and warlocks are the assassination targets, but my point was that it would be MUCH easier under your proposed new rule. It's not a matter of being forced to run less 'hot', it's a matter of being able to manage fury at all. Most HORDES players already have nightmares trying to balance fury generation with taking (the more effective) units in the game. I really don't want to harp on Legion, but again, they are outside of this, since their beasts are so great with their fury, and so much more worth fielding.

---

Chaotic neutral means never having to say you're sorry.

Very First Vanity Signature:
Circle Orboros: 71 models; 137 points plus warlocks
Minions: 14 models; 20 points
Mercenaries: 6 models; 20 points plus warcaster
Cygnar: 1 model; 2 points
Tau Empire: 2009 points including all special characters
LOTR SBG: Evil 385; Good 4468

Same goes for Menoth when they are at the top. Typically a Harbinger and 1 jack - a devout. Rest is infantry.

---

The key is to commit crimes so confusing that police feel too stupid to even write a crime report about them.
Randy K. Milholland, Something Positive Comic, 10-30-03

Desperate is not a sexual preference.
Randy K. Milholland, Something Postive, 01-08-09

Wow, didn't expect everyone to vent about Legion...again...

I don't like to say Legion is "broken" I think what most people find with them is they change the game when you're playing them. They get around a lot of the hinderances that most armies must deal with, LOS is easier for them, moving around the board in general and you generally can't pin them down (with the threat of free strikes). Coupled with the highest speed and defense of any faction, they are a hard army to fight. It's not impossible, but you have to be prepared for it. If you are, you can win.

The other is the "Alpha Strike" nature of Hordes. Generally whoever can hit first wins in this game. Hordes has a tendency for that One Big Turn where you pour out tons of fury and really smash your opponent. Warmachine doesn't, it plays attrition better and their armies generally function the same throughout the game, due to the limiting factor of fixed Focus amounts. The other factor is Legion is the best faction for getting that alpha strike off. Supeiror speed, Eyeless sight and flying over most things generally means the Legion player can hit first and hit where they want to. Making it hard to protect vital models in your own army. Basically unless everything on your army can take a hit, Legion has the potential to easily cripple you. Legion also have some excellent Solos and abilities to keep any down side from loading up on fury negligible. And Frenzying after an alpha strike is rarely a bad thing. Skorne have paingivers to help manage fury, but on that turn you're generally enraging your beasts, not sending them forward to take off fury (and get killed, not that they could get that far).

Khador Infantry isn't any faster then anyone elses, and our heavy infantry is the slowest in the game.

---

Chicks dig giant robots.

Khador: 100 models/180 pts all painted!
Skorne: 65 models/133 pts all painted!
Mercs/Minions: 37 models/53 pts all painted!
Cygnar: 22 models/72 pts all painted! (and for sale)
Extreme Annihilator

3325 Tons of Battlemechs

Absolutely! You hit the nail right on the head on that one. Legion will pull off the Alpha strike nearly every time unless you are extremely careful in your model placement. The worst pat of the equation is that Legion is the only faction that can pull off an Alpha Strike repeatedly due to their broken synergies/ feats. An Angelius can thrust a gaping hole in your front line and with a simple combination of spells and Animi withdraw the beast without taking free strikes.


Legion has stupidly broken solos and abilities.

Fury management is not a problem for this faction, they can drain it away and toss it back as a 7d6 attack on your hapless caster. Lovely.

---

Warmachine
Protectorate of Menoth - 2063 / 948 Painted
Mercenary 454 / 408 Painted

Hordes MkII
Skorne - 117 / 81 Painted
Minion - 8 / 2 Painted

Flames of War
Indian Rifle Company - 1220 / 450 Painted

2010 Painting Resolution: 52 Models
34% Completed: Basilisk Drake, Basilisk Krea, Ancestral Guardian, Cyclops Shaman, Kovass, Feralgeist, 6x Praetorian Swordsman, 4x Paingiver Beast Handlers, S'omer Teeth Jones, Lord Tyrant Hexeris.

My problem with the nerf bat is that it always seems to come down in the wrong places. I mean stationary in MK1 was something to be feared in MK2 it is a joke for anything with focus.  Hell i am not even a cygnar player and what they did to Darius makes me feel bad for cygnar. Epic Asphyxious got mauled and for what ?? simply because he "could" be hard to kill IF he had souls on him.  
Yes the nerf bat is soming but I don't see how they can deal with the legions "problems" without restructuring the whole faction. I mean at this point it seems like everyone is agreed that it is the beasts that are the crux of the issue, and the beasts (if WARMACHINE MK2 is any indicator) will get an increase in power, which again will mean more cries of cheese or broken, privateer has their work cut out for them

---

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun

I doubt beasts will get nerfed or buffed significantly, at least inherently. Beasts have long been considered supirior to jacks in the game for various reasons. MKII is an attempt to level the playing field a bit.

---

Chicks dig giant robots.

Khador: 100 models/180 pts all painted!
Skorne: 65 models/133 pts all painted!
Mercs/Minions: 37 models/53 pts all painted!
Cygnar: 22 models/72 pts all painted! (and for sale)
Extreme Annihilator

3325 Tons of Battlemechs